[JDEV] MSN vs Jabber

[Julian Missig]

On Sat, 2002-05-18 at 15:10, Mattias Campe wrote:
> David Waite wrote:
> > Mattias Campe wrote:
> > 
> >> I know that ICQ only has a part that is completely open (the AIM TOC 
> >> protocol), but what about MSN? Does MSN have a completely open 
> >> protocol? Do you have to pay some money to use it, like if you would 
> >> like to build your own client? Can you install a server for free? 
> > 
> > 
> > AIM/ICQ do not have an open protocol - AOL has stated they will not 
> > guarantee access to any party which uses TOC without a financial 
> > agreement with them (and have actively blocked parties using both TOC 
> > and their main OSCAR protocol)
> 
> Wauw (wauw in the sense of :'-( ) I didn't know that developers had to 
> pay for the TOC protocol. So, to use the ICQ gateway, the jabber servers 
> actually have to pay for it?

No, you can't communicate with ICQ using TOC (as far as I know), and
Jabber doesn't use TOC. The AIM-transport uses libfaim, which has
reverse-engineered support for OSCAR, the undocumented closed AIM
protocol. ICQv7-transport uses libicq2000, which has reverse-engineered
support for ICQv7, the undocumented closed ICQ protocol.

> 
> > Microsoft at one time submitted the MSN protocol to the IETF as an 
> > informational draft. They did not seek to make this an informational 
> > RFC, and let this draft expire (making it slightly harder to find 
> > nowdays). Their newer protocols are not documented.
> 
> Was it actually Microsoft who let the draft expire or was it the IETF 
> who didn't approve it? If it was the IETF, could it be then that Jabber 
> also never makes it as a standard? Is it true that "irc" is an IETF 
> standard?
> You say that they newer protocols are not documented, but can developers 
> find some useful information (provided by Microsoft itself, not by third 
> parties)?

Microsoft never moved forward with their documentation. They never
updated it, and they never tried to get it approved. That's what David
was saying when he said, "They did not seek to make this an
informational RFC, and let this draft expire."

As far as I know, Microsoft provides no documentation for the MSN
protocols. That's why it's a pain that the IETF draft was never pushed
forward and is hard to find.

> 
> > MSN, AIM, ICQ, and Yahoo have all taken active steps to prevent third 
> > parties without formal business relationships from iterfacing with their 
> > networks, under _any_ protocol.
> 
> AIM/ICQ block a lot of jabber-servers (e.g. jabber.org, jabber.com) 
> because they see that a mass of communication come from one IP. Still 
> the msn gateway seems to run queit good. Why don't microsoft block the 
> jabber-servers too, should it only be because they are afraid of having 
> to go to court (again) or could there be some other reason?

That's not the reason they block them. That's a reason they become
suspicious, yes, but a lot of users behind a firewall would look
similar. Microsoft doesn't block the Jabber servers either because they
have not discovered them or they don't care right now. If we were to go
to court over Microsoft blocking us, Microsoft would win (unless they
were in some way violating the rulings from earlier court hearings, but
they most likely would not be)

> 
> >> In general, what are the differences between Jabber and MSN? What are 
> >> the "equalties"? What are the advantages to use Jabber and what are 
> >> the disadvantages? 
> > 
> > 
> > Jabber is decentralized, while MSN uses a central server (your 'address' 
> > on the MSN server resembles an email address, but all accounts are 
> > handled by their server farm). Jabber is open - you can write your own 
> > server and clients, as well as use and contribute to several open-source 
> > servers and clients already available.
> 
> Could it be that is doesn't have to be a Microsoft server, because I've 
> seen some MSN users with an MSN account like name at skynet.be? Would it be 
> possible to run an MSN-server at a company, just for the internal 
> communication (suppose external communication is not allowed because of 
> the security)? And if its possible would the company have to pay, even 
> if they would install it all by themselves (knowing Microsoft, I'd 
> probably say "yes").

No. David was saying the stuff after the @ has nothing to do with the
server. There's no MSN server running on skynet.be. My MSN account name
is julian at linuxpower.org, and I can assure you there's no MSN server on
linuxpower.org.

I'm not aware of Microsoft licensing servers for internal use, but I'm
sure that if a company was willing to pay enough, Microsoft might be
able to arrange something.

> 
> > Jabber is extensible through XML, while MSN is only extensible through 
> > new MIME types. I don't believe you can register type handlers with the 
> > official MSN clients, making that extensibility limited to people using 
> > the same third-party client - and there is no feature negotiation.
> > 
> > The MSN protocol was built around Microsoft's need for the ability to 
> > massively farm their servers, which gives it some interesting 
> > properties. Jabber is designed for decentralized access across domains, 
> > but wasn't designed with farming and data locality within one domain in 
> > mind. However, MSN has some deficiencies in their farming as well  - for 
> > example, the switchboard servers are a decently good idea, but horrible 
> > when it comes down to their protocol and implementation.
> 
> Sorry, but what exactly are "switchboard severs"? Is it when MSN-server 
> goes down, another takes over?
> 
> > MSN's big advantage is (of course) user-base. Microsoft built up a user 
> > base in a way that only someone with a monopoly on computer operating 
> > systems could ;-) However, I've seen numbers in the past that indicate 
> > their userbase has significantly lower usage by percentage than the 
> > other three main portal IM systems; I figure this is because people set 
> > up an MSN account when they set up their computer not knowing what it 
> > is, or wanting to use it. The client then just logs in and stays silent 
> > in their tooltray whenever they connect to the internet.
> > 
> > -David Waite
> > 
> 
> 
> In the future I'll need hard prove to have a comparison ICQ/AIM, MSN, 
> Yahoo Messenger vs Jabber. Do you happen to know sb. who already started 
> such a comparison, with hard prove (documents, URLs,...). If not, I'll 
> make my work from it, it's for my thesis work next academic year 
> (starting in October 2002), but I already wanted to have some 
> information about it! I would like to build something similar to the 
> .NET alerts of Microsoft: http://messenger.msn.com/support/features3.asp 
> Do you happen to know sb. working on this?

There are no well-documented comparisons between Jabber and other IM
systems that I am aware of.

Julian
-- 
email: julian at jabber.org
jabber:julian at jabber.org