[JDEV] MSN vs Jabber

[Nicholas Perez]

Hard "proof" comes in the form of everything DW already said pretty 
much. So either you were asking the wrong questions or not listening. 
If you want hard "proof", then I suggest you sit down, read the IETF 
document we pushed, and spend some time at jabber.org reading the other 
various documentation available. After you have done that, go call M$, 
AOL, YAHOO, EXCITE and get out your credit-card, and see how much their 
documentation is.  There is your major difference.

Ours is an open network of developers and users. We publish an open 
protocol so _everyone_ can play.  Anyone can write a 
client(http://gabber.sf.net), anyone can write a server 
(http://www.tipic.com), anyone can write a serverside component 
(http://www.jabberstudio.org/projects/view.php?id=10), jabber enabled 
framework (http://theoretic.com/?Jabber_And_GNU), jabber powered website 
(http://jabberview.com), jabber aware presence maps 
(http://www.ralphm.net/world), whiteboards using 
jabber(http://jabberzilla.mozdev.org/releases), jabber libraries 
(http://jecl.jabberstudio.org/ 
http://www.openather.org/projects/index.html http://jabberoo.sf.net) , 
and even games using jabber (http://theoretic.com/?Jabber_And_GNU).

Now if you still want to compare our _framework_ with some piddidle 
clients on piddidle networks that all they do is "chat" and encourage 
people to shorten their language usage to "Plz" and "sb." you are more 
than welcome to do so. But we already provide more than enough weight 
for our side of the fulcrum with documentation and implementation. So 
the burden is now upon you. We do not need to defend ourselves or do 
someones homework for them.

Nick
___________________________

Mattias Campe wrote:
> David Waite wrote:
> 
>> Mattias Campe wrote:
>>
>>> I know that ICQ only has a part that is completely open (the AIM TOC 
>>> protocol), but what about MSN? Does MSN have a completely open 
>>> protocol? Do you have to pay some money to use it, like if you would 
>>> like to build your own client? Can you install a server for free? 
>>
>>
>>
>> AIM/ICQ do not have an open protocol - AOL has stated they will not 
>> guarantee access to any party which uses TOC without a financial 
>> agreement with them (and have actively blocked parties using both TOC 
>> and their main OSCAR protocol)
> 
> 
> Wauw (wauw in the sense of :'-( ) I didn't know that developers had to 
> pay for the TOC protocol. So, to use the ICQ gateway, the jabber servers 
> actually have to pay for it?
> 
>> Microsoft at one time submitted the MSN protocol to the IETF as an 
>> informational draft. They did not seek to make this an informational 
>> RFC, and let this draft expire (making it slightly harder to find 
>> nowdays). Their newer protocols are not documented.
> 
> 
> Was it actually Microsoft who let the draft expire or was it the IETF 
> who didn't approve it? If it was the IETF, could it be then that Jabber 
> also never makes it as a standard? Is it true that "irc" is an IETF 
> standard?
> You say that they newer protocols are not documented, but can developers 
> find some useful information (provided by Microsoft itself, not by third 
> parties)?
> 
>> MSN, AIM, ICQ, and Yahoo have all taken active steps to prevent third 
>> parties without formal business relationships from iterfacing with 
>> their networks, under _any_ protocol.
> 
> 
> AIM/ICQ block a lot of jabber-servers (e.g. jabber.org, jabber.com) 
> because they see that a mass of communication come from one IP. Still 
> the msn gateway seems to run queit good. Why don't microsoft block the 
> jabber-servers too, should it only be because they are afraid of having 
> to go to court (again) or could there be some other reason?
> 
>>> In general, what are the differences between Jabber and MSN? What are 
>>> the "equalties"? What are the advantages to use Jabber and what are 
>>> the disadvantages? 
>>
>>
>>
>> Jabber is decentralized, while MSN uses a central server (your 
>> 'address' on the MSN server resembles an email address, but all 
>> accounts are handled by their server farm). Jabber is open - you can 
>> write your own server and clients, as well as use and contribute to 
>> several open-source servers and clients already available.
> 
> 
> Could it be that is doesn't have to be a Microsoft server, because I've 
> seen some MSN users with an MSN account like name at skynet.be? Would it be 
> possible to run an MSN-server at a company, just for the internal 
> communication (suppose external communication is not allowed because of 
> the security)? And if its possible would the company have to pay, even 
> if they would install it all by themselves (knowing Microsoft, I'd 
> probably say "yes").
> 
>> Jabber is extensible through XML, while MSN is only extensible through 
>> new MIME types. I don't believe you can register type handlers with 
>> the official MSN clients, making that extensibility limited to people 
>> using the same third-party client - and there is no feature negotiation.
>>
>> The MSN protocol was built around Microsoft's need for the ability to 
>> massively farm their servers, which gives it some interesting 
>> properties. Jabber is designed for decentralized access across 
>> domains, but wasn't designed with farming and data locality within one 
>> domain in mind. However, MSN has some deficiencies in their farming as 
>> well  - for example, the switchboard servers are a decently good idea, 
>> but horrible when it comes down to their protocol and implementation.
> 
> 
> Sorry, but what exactly are "switchboard severs"? Is it when MSN-server 
> goes down, another takes over?
> 
>> MSN's big advantage is (of course) user-base. Microsoft built up a 
>> user base in a way that only someone with a monopoly on computer 
>> operating systems could ;-) However, I've seen numbers in the past 
>> that indicate their userbase has significantly lower usage by 
>> percentage than the other three main portal IM systems; I figure this 
>> is because people set up an MSN account when they set up their 
>> computer not knowing what it is, or wanting to use it. The client then 
>> just logs in and stays silent in their tooltray whenever they connect 
>> to the internet.
>>
>> -David Waite
>>
> 
> 
> In the future I'll need hard prove to have a comparison ICQ/AIM, MSN, 
> Yahoo Messenger vs Jabber. Do you happen to know sb. who already started 
> such a comparison, with hard prove (documents, URLs,...). If not, I'll 
> make my work from it, it's for my thesis work next academic year 
> (starting in October 2002), but I already wanted to have some 
> information about it! I would like to build something similar to the 
> .NET alerts of Microsoft: http://messenger.msn.com/support/features3.asp 
> Do you happen to know sb. working on this?
> 
> 
> Thx a lot for the help!
> .m.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> jdev mailing list
> jdev at jabber.org
> http://mailman.jabber.org/listinfo/jdev