[JDEV] Request for comments on system using jabber

[Thomas Charron]

From: Jens Alfke
Subject: Re: [JDEV] Request for comments on system using jabber
On Friday, May 25, 2001, at 09:31 AM, Thomas Charron wrote:
>>Look at it this way. You don't see any large companies handling their
>>email routing by setting up Outlook Express with a crapload of delivery
>>rules. You have an entire email 'system' for handling them.
> That's not the right analogy! The right one is "does a mailing list server
have to be its own SMTP server or can it just connect to an SMTP server the
way a mail client would". The answer is that, while many listservs
> support direct SMTP, it's optional. It does help in some areas like
handling bounces, but it isn't a requirement even for large-scale services.

    Wrong analogy there, bud.  SMTP would be the use of the s2s components,
*NOT* to c2s.  This of c2s as POP or IMAP.  s2s is more like SMTP.  Now,
take one of those mailing lists, and send it to 250k inboxes by posting
directly to the IMAP boxes themselves.  (Ok, that ones bad, becouse IMAP
lets you share folders..  But just suspend reality for a minute)

>> In the IM bot realm, the existence of ActiveBuddy <www.activeBuddy.com>
disproves your argument. Since their bots are available on today's
monolithic IM systems like AIM and Yahoo, they are obviously not
>> running their own servers since those services don't support multiple
servers. Their bots log into AIM or Yahoo just like a client (and that
raises the interesting question of why AOL isn't trying to block them.
Perhaps
>> they have some kind of special deal.)

> I agree with you that there are copious implementation reasons to
implement a bot as a transport given the current server; but there are no
architectural reasons to (and reasons against it, as I listed earlier.)

    Theres a simple solution to this.  Remove all of the code that allows
you to be aware of whoe can see your presence.  And also, don't use rosters.
The jabber server will now function wonderfully.  Unfortionatly, users WANT
these features.  The company you mentioned above does NOT handle presence.
They simply respond to messages sent to them, and rely on the IM system in
front of it to handle it's presence.  Jabber decided it was a needed feature
to be able to know who can see you, and who you can see.  This feature
requires notifications, and these notifications and information parsing is
what kills the server.  c2s was written specifically with the idea that a
person was on one end, and designed as such.  This provides us with
numerouse features we DO NOT HAVE ACCESS TO in other IM systems.

    And as a mental note, go ahead and start up any AIM or ICQ application,
and try to add 250k users to your roster.  Then come back, and tell me that
none of the other IM systems have this limitation.  Then go ahead and try to
load up your car with 20 tons of cargo, and drive somewhere.  Then you can
have this same conversation with the automakers about why passenger cars
can't do the same work as a Mack truck.