[JDEV] Good jabber client needed (was: Response to Jer's Arti cle)

[Duncan, Paul]

	Propagation of a poor UI has nothing to do with the poor UI.  Users
use a product deemed popular.  People who design beautiful UI's are not the
same people who design effective systems.  The gap lies in creative and
technical.  Many (including myself) like to think of themselves as able to
do both with equal proficiency, though this tends to not be the case.  ICQ
is popular because it is a usable tool to allow people to do something they
want.  People tend to forgive stupid/ineffective UI's because they tend to
be lazy, learn the tool and its idiosyncrasies, and/or their friends use it,
thereby (prior to JABBER!) forcing the tools use.

	I fear that many of us are far more technical than creative.  I
believe to build the 'ultimate' chat client would require a substantial
effort of single-task focused, talented individuals working from a common
document.

	Determine who will be the UI designers, the programmers, the
documenters, and the managers.  Determine features and glom of all the
things you like best about other clients and things you wish they had,
document them, build the API to accommodate them, build the UI.  (One thing
I don't like immediately is that I can't use any Jabber Client at work
because of the port used, it'd be nice to see a HTTP Jabber server..)
	
	I would love to be a part of something like that.

	I think first and foremost Jabber is a chat-enabler.  Everything
else it can do/be used for is ancillary.

	IMHO, Duncan

-----Original Message-----
From: jdev-admin at jabber.org [mailto:jdev-admin at jabber.org]On Behalf Of
Todd Bradley
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 10:25 AM
To: 'Oliver Fleischmann '; ''jdev at jabber.org' '
Subject: RE: [JDEV] Good jabber client needed (was: Response to Jer's
Article)


It's funny to think of ICQ as the model 
GUI for instant messaging applications.
I'm not sure I can think of any main-
stream program that has more of a hacked-
together look-and-feel, especially with
their latest release.

Take the whole right click/left click
thing, for instance.  Apparently, ICQ
only wants you to use one mouse button,
but not the other.  When you click the
"wrong" one, it brings up a little error
dialog saying, "Click the other one!".  
Well, if it can trap the "wrong" mouse 
event in order to bring up that dialog, 
why not just have it perform the same
function as the "right" mouse button?
It's insane!  Alan Cooper would be spin-
ning in his grave (if he were dead).

So, when you say "I think too many people 
who want to use jabber are influenced by 
the ICQ Clients and the ICQ Client 
interface" I have to agree with you.

However, your statement that "Ok, Jabber 
is also an IM service, but it's more 
and people should know that it's not
ICQ" I disagree.  The end user who just
wants a nice IM program couldn't care
less if the underlying protocol is used
for alien spacecraft landing approach 
systems.  They just want a way to have 
better online conversations ("conver-
sations" in the big Cluetrain sense of
the word).


Todd.
ps.  On the other hand, the poor UI
of ICQ doesn't seem to have hindered
its mass adoption, does it?  Same with
Napster.  So maybe we're all over-
stating the value of interface.


-----Original Message-----
From: Oliver Fleischmann
To: 'jdev at jabber.org'
Sent: 3/16/01 7:49 AM
Subject: Re: [JDEV] Good jabber client needed (was: Response to Jer's
Article)



On Wed, 14 Mar 2001, Colin Madere wrote:

> I am all for supporting such a client development.  It is something I
have
> heard many people say about Jabber: "Wow, that's great.. I wish there
was a
> good client."

I think too many people who want to use jabber are influenced by the ICQ
Clients and the ICQ Client interface. Ok, Jabber is also an IM service,
but it's more and people should know that it's not ICQ. 
The fact that most of the clients are open-source makes it difficult to
develop the perfect jabber client. Many people code the clients in their
free time and it's not their main job. But the clients become more and
more powerful and they're open to the whole world. And that's their
advantage. So the clients will never be perfect but at the time most of
the clients are very useful and if someone really wants to change
something in its behaviour then he should learn to program and modify
it. 

> The component idea I think would work.  Start by defining an API for
each
> component and then maybe have groups working in different languages to
do
> this

I agree with this. There should heavier work an jabber libraries. If the
libs are fast and have a defined API Client developing would be easier
and
faster. 
That's what I think.
 
Olli


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