[jdev] Re: CSpace instant messenger integrated in Jabber / GAJIM

[thomasasta at gmx.net]

-------- Original-Nachricht --------
Datum: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 11:14:56 +0200
Von: Michal vorner Vaner <michal.vaner at kdemail.net>

> 
> You do not seem to understand purpose of jabber. Why is cspace something
> so special we should care more than with other IM networks?
> 
> Between, try meet someone ask him to dictate you his public key ;-). I
> remember my JID.

The RSA-Key is the long key for emailfooters and the optional CSpace-ID is the short easy to remember number for exchange with the ladies in a tramp ;-)
 
> Well, is it possible to run more your clients on a same computer with
> separate keys? Like on a unix system, two logged-in people, having each
> his own? If no, then I think your system is broken.

For RSA key and Cspace-ID before the application launch is made, a password is requested, so multiusers on a pc is of course possible.
Qait the next release, then the RSA-Key is as well launching the App.

 
> If yes, why could not the transport have all the private keys of the
> users (OK, it is not too much secure, I know, but no transport is, you
> have to give it at last password or so..) and act as many clients on the
> same machine?

No, this is insecure, so a server as a transport hosting millions of private key would underdetermien the security. So the only option is to integrate Cspace in the clients, as with jabber-encryption the servers are useless, as they route only white nose traffic, so the server hop is a WASTE.


> I want to see all these jabber-only clients do that :D. That just makes
> no sense. Being you, I would ask the multiprotocol ones.

They will start as well, an you must say: ask the enxrypting ones, as they have white nose traffic and the server as a middle hop is not needed. Whay routing enxrypted traffic over a server? This is the paradigm change, that for a messenger system no servers are needed, so jabber can easily add in the cleints as well kademlia based on cspace protocol. The pyhton one can start and the encryption enabling one do not need servers as well.
Encrytion in jabber makes jabberservers obsolete, this is the claim!


> Between, speaking about redefining protocols, you should go to JIG, not
> JDev.

ok in cc.

> If you asked me, this will not fly. You need to persuade all jabber-only
> clients to include cspace. They will say "Um, why? Another foreign
> network, we do not care." And you need to define some binding between
> jabber and cspace. 

I agree, this was not the request, just to discuss technically, how they could technicall join. For Python GAJIM, where the discussion started, it is easy to add CSpace, for all others with enxryption the question is rised, why still serverbased. And all others can profit from this discussion to built modern messengers!

The binding between Cspac and Jabber is the enxryption: Every jabber client with encryption does not need servers. Its a WASTE routing !

> Between, even this approach has some disadvantages by itself. You can
> not just go to friends computer and log on by name and password you 
> remember. Do you have contactlist that you would download each time you
> log in? Do you support offline messages? Normal users just do not care
> about security. That is why they still use networks like MSN or ICQ,
> they are totally unencrypted.

If you go to a fiends pc you can easily log on with the CSpace-ID. well it is a help construct and serverbased, but you get your account open without your buddies, right, you need then to insert them again. But: There is the option to take your profil with all your buddies on a USB stick and then you can anter any PC. In the next release this profil is a ZIP file, readable from linux and windows, not matter which PC you use..


As there are python jabbers and enxrypted jabber there is basis for a discussion, and in general: why do we need jabber with servers, if we can call cspace jabber without servers? As CSpace-ID is optional, we could make jabber servers working as well with kademlia DHT and RSA-Keys additionall, so if any jabber server is offline, the network would still work, as it is decentral !
 

-------- Original-Nachricht --------

> On Sat, Aug 05, 2006 at 12:00:17AM +0200,:
> > Hi
> > 
> > thanks for the suggestions. As said, I think a gateway in
> http://Cspace.in is not necessary, as we mix up secure and insecure chats and Cspace
> needs other development than multiprotocol, though, other jabber clients should
> integrate Cspace, either as a code to get a multiclient or with a
> transport. The suggestions are quite fitting, but I think you did not get th
> earchitecture of CSpace, so test around please.
> 
> You do not seem to understand purpose of jabber. Why is cspace something
> so special we should care more than with other IM networks?
> 
> Between, try meet someone ask him to dictate you his public key ;-). I
> remember my JID.
> > The messenger is a p2p decentral messenger based on a kademlia dht.
> > All is encrypted in secure channels.
> > This means creating a transport is quite impossible, we would need one
> transport server, forwarding the message from jabber user to the C-Space
> ID-User, this means e.g. several users get from the same server the RSA-Key as
> the sender (forwarder) of the message. This would mix up the system, so
> only the client can integrate CSpace as a hybrid version.
> 
> Well, is it possible to run more your clients on a same computer with
> separate keys? Like on a unix system, two logged-in people, having each
> his own? If no, then I think your system is broken.
> 
> If yes, why could not the transport have all the private keys of the
> users (OK, it is not too much secure, I know, but no transport is, you
> have to give it at last password or so..) and act as many clients on the
> same machine?
> > This is requested and recommended, and if two users could switch to
> cspace in Jabber to jabber client, than they should leave jabber for secure
> Cspace protocol... of course this is very acid to jabber as here a leave of
> the jabber identity is necessary...  But otherwise I see ne technical
> solution, if you have no idea to this problem.
> 
> I want to see all these jabber-only clients do that :D. That just makes
> no sense. Being you, I would ask the multiprotocol ones.
> > So how could a jabber transport be organized in to a p2p system ???
> > The transport server then needs to deliver all messages to a certain
> RSA-key, found on the kademlia dht. And this means, that eihter the server or
> the jabber client needs to get a RSA-Key too.
> > 
> > But for a server this makes no sense, as then there is only one KEY for
> several users as said, and then we are again at the model, that every
> client needs a RSA-Key.
> > 
> > this means only the cleints can get hybrid with Cspace.
> IMHO they can not get hybrid. Implementation and religious reasons.
> > There was a long time ago the question for encrypted jabber, why we need
> servers, if they route white node traffic, they cannot read. So a server
> architecture of encrypted messages is nonsense and they could to it IP to
> IP. They only need a lookup service to get the IP adress or RSA-key of the
> client.
> > 
> > Once this understood, with the first coded p2p Messenger, which is now
> out with CSpace, we can get rid of the jabber servers.
> > 
> > This lead to a total re-definition of jabber, and we do not need
> jabberservers anymore. As this is as well the jabber developer list, I want to
> make the discussion more wider to change the Jabber brand to Cspace protocol
> and clients.
> > 
> > *THIS* must be jabber. Jabber needs to get rid of the servers, as emule
> with kademlia has as well the option to work without servers.
> Um, and where would all the transports, all the services, dictionaries,
> offline storages go? No, you made entirely _new_ protocol, that does not
> have much to do with jabber. Jabber is server-oriented. You can hardly
> turn it inside out. You can get inspired and define a new protocol.
> 
> Between, speaking about redefining protocols, you should go to JIG, not
> JDev.
> > And for this purpose each client needs to implement CSpace, or lets say
> more freindly kademlia (but kompatible with Cspace)... Like Emule
> implemented Kademlia.
> > 
> > understood the revolution/turnaround?
> If you asked me, this will not fly. You need to persuade all jabber-only
> clients to include cspace. They will say "Um, why? Another foreign
> network, we do not care." And you need to define some binding between
> jabber and cspace. 
> 
> Between, even this approach has some disadvantages by itself. You can
> not just go to friends computer and log on by name and password you 
> remember. Do you have contactlist that you would download each time you
> log in? Do you support offline messages? Normal users just do not care
> about security. That is why they still use networks like MSN or ICQ,
> they are totally unencrypted.
> > We need RSA-Key´s not jabberservers in the announcement of Messenger
> profiles. So this needs to be discussed in the next jabber conference and we
> need the first python clients getting hybrid with Cspace as this is the
> most easiest to start with python written jabber clients.
> > 
> > Thanks
> > 
> > -------- Original-Nachricht --------
> > Von: "Jeffrey C. Ollie" <jeff at ocjtech.us>
> > 
> > > I would recommend looking at PyMSNt and PyICQt for inspiration:
> > > 
> > > http://delx.cjb.net/pymsnt/
> > > http://pyicq-t.blathersource.org/
> > 
> > 
> > Von: "Norman Rasmussen" <norman at rasmussen.co.za>
> > 
> > > Sounds like something, someone with some twisted or xmpp.py experience
> > > (and some time) could look at.
> > > http://twistedmatrix.com/trac/
> > > http://sourceforge.net/projects/xmpppy/
> > >
> > 
> > > On 8/4/06, thomasasta at gmx.net <thomasasta at gmx.net> wrote:
> > > > ok, IMHO Cspace does not need multiprotocol,
> > > >
> > > > how do we get in jabber a transport for the new messenger
> > > >
> > > > http://cspace.in
> > > >
> > > > then ?
> > > >
> > > > -------- Original-Nachricht --------
> > > > Datum: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 14:05:33 -0500
> > > > Von: "Jeffrey C. Ollie" <jeff at ocjtech.us>
> > > > Betreff: Re: [Gajim-devel] p2p python instant messenger integrated
> in
> > > GAJIM     (pyhton)
> > > >
> > > > > I can't speak for the developers, but from what I know of Gajim it
> > > isn't
> > > > > aspiring to be a multiprotocol instant messaging client.  Gajim
> gets
> > > > > it's ability to talk to users on other instant messaging networks
> by
> > > > > using the Jabber/XMPP protocol to talk to special gateways (known
> as
> > > > > transports).
> > > > >
> > > > > CSpace users could use a similar method to connect to other
> instant
> > > > > messaging services from the native CSpace client.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'd also suggest creating a CSpace plug-in for Gaim.  Gaim is
> designed
> > > > > to support many different instant messaging protocols through the
> use
> > > of
> > > > > plugins.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, 2006-08-04 at 19:39 +0200, thomasasta at gmx.net wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > there is a new p2p serverless Instant Messenger out:
> > > > > > Open, Pyhton, excrypting everything.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Would it be possible that GA JIM developers integrate this
> Messenger
> > > > > Protocol and system / Gui as well in GAJIM ??
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Then Cspace users, which need a gateway to AOL MSN JAbber etc,
> could
> > > use
> > > > > GAJIM. And the CSpace Developers could keep the Cspace free from
> > > > > GATEWAYS,w hich woudl only bloat their software now, as we need a
> > > secure only
> > > > > environment and a Cspace only client.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So Gajim with Cspace support would be perfect, maybe you could
> have
> > > a
> > > > > look at the python code and integrate it in Gajim,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > here is the website, see as well the Trac-Wiki with Suggestions
> and
> > > the
> > > > > Mailinglist about the gateways...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://Cspace.in
> > > > > >
> > > > > > if you want to contact the developers, use the CC mailers.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --


-- 


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