[JDEV] File transfers

[Mike Oliver]

oh, right and ports 25, 143 and 110 are arbitrary.

At 04:50 PM 6/6/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>He knows what he's talking about, he's just assuming too much in his 
>descriptions.  People who don't know what they're talking about don't use 
>words like MTA and MUA, and if they do they act very proud of knowing it. :)
>
>Hard distinctions between client and server are SOOO last century. :)

Geez and I thought last century was just a couple of years ago.


> From a conceptual perspective, a *local* POP server (i.e. mycompany.com) 
> is in some ways a client for the overall server "cloud" of Internet 
> mail.  SMTP is essentially a non-realtime store and forward network, 
> which is "batch" in many ways, for lots of good reasons.

Are we in La La land?  You name me one email server that uses something 
other than SMTP to transfer internet Mail between servers?  When you hit 
that old send button you tell your email client to open good old server 
port 110 and transfer the email message and attachments via SMTP (the P 
stands for Protocol and there is no N for Network in it) and your email 
server looks at the addresses and sends copies of the message to all the 
addresses it can find or to another SMTP server that might know more 
addresses, which in turn sends all the messages off to other SMTP 
servers...POP is the protocol for email clients to retrieve the email and 
attachments from a SERVER as is IMAP with the key difference being the 
ability to have a persistent store of folders/mailboxes.  POP is NOT used 
any other way.  So your conceptual local POP server NEVER acts as a client 
and accesses some other server in the "cloud", it sits there patiently 
until some other 'server' sends it something.

So from the cloud of smoke you two must be smoking conceptually, you can't 
make client-server, into client-client OR peer to peer.  Those are words 
you know as well, but knowing their meaning is more important.   A client 
makes requests and a server answers them.  Yes indeed it gets cloudy when a 
server talks to a server and the roles blur on a request by request basis, 
but not the protocols they use.

I am not advocating use of SMTP for Jabber File Transfers, however a mix of 
Protocols that are accepted protocols for file transfers and messaging is 
what I think we all want.  The Jabber protocol IS NOT a good idea for large 
files, but some direct client to client or peer to peer mechanism IS a good 
idea.

Maybe I am being to precise and too concise for you two.  But as an 
Architect and developer it IS important and since this is a developer's 
forum I choose not to mislead those that may be beginning to confuse them 
with some "concepts" that are simply WRONG.

Knowing the words is only half the battle knowing what they mean takes a 
little more effort.

>
>And those points of view are part of the reason we both think that putting 
>this special "realtime non-messaging packet forwarder" hat on the Jabber 
>server is a stretch, and has all the problems we've previously mentioned.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mike Oliver [mailto:ollie at appsaspeers.com]
>Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 7:38 PM
>To: jdev at jabber.org
>Subject: RE: [JDEV] File transfers
>
>Ok adding value, you simply don't know what you are talking about.
>
>How's that?  POP AND IMAP are protocols for Clients to talk to Servers to 
>access stores of messages and attachments.  A Pop or IMAP Client DOES NOT 
>talk to another Pop or IMAP Client...EVER...SMTP is the way you SEND 
>messages to those stores and every single email message you send is 
>transferred using SMTP and BTW SendMail is just an SMTP Program for 
>sending mail, it has nothing to do with "bulk".  Have you ever setup an 
>email client?  If you did you had to setup the email server for getting 
>your email and choose POP3 or IMAP4 and then an SMTP server for outgoing, 
>or if you leave that blank it tries to use the same server you setup for 
>incoming.  But these are on different ports even if on the same ip 
>address/dns name.
>
>If YOU want to add value, don't spout about things you obviously know 
>NOTHING about.  Read the specifications about POP3, IMAP4 AND SMTP and you 
>can find those at http://www.ietf.org
>
>I completely agree it depends on where you are standing and you are 
>standing in the dark.
>
>
>
>At 02:06 PM 6/6/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>
>>Mike cogently queries:
>> > What planet are you from?
>>There's a great way to add value to a thread. :)
>>
>> > POP, IMAP and MAPI (Exchange) ARE NOT "client-to-client", PLEASE!
>>Sure, why not?  user --> sendmail --> mail spool accessible via POP,
>>at which point the server stops being so much of a server and starts
>>acting a little more like a peer (POP, IMAP and MAPI being ad hoc,
>>connected, conversational programs, unlike SMTP, which is largely a
>>batch-oriented bulk drop).  It all depends where you're standing.
>>No need to question my mudball of origin.
>>
>> > sendmail is just an SMTP mail transfer agent program and no different 
>> than
>> > any other SMTP mail transfer agent program like those from Netscape and
>> > Microsoft...ARG!
>>
>>Netscape makes an MTA?  What's it called?  I've seen their MUA, but
>>I'm surprised to hear they have an MTA.  I bet it crashes a lot. :)
>>
>>F.
>>
>>
>>
>>**********************************************************************
>>E-mail sent through the Internet is not secure. Western Asset therefore
>>recommends that you do not send any confidential or sensitive information to
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>>**********************************************************************
>Michael Oliver
>Chief Technology Officer
>AppsAsPeers.com
>7391 S. Bullrider Ave.
>Tucson, AZ 85747
>520.574.1150

Michael Oliver
Chief Technology Officer
AppsAsPeers.com
7391 S. Bullrider Ave.
Tucson, AZ 85747
520.574.1150
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