[JDEV] File transfers
Michael F Lin
MFLIN at us.ibm.com
Thu Jun 6 10:10:10 CDT 2002
Richard, by your logic, every ISP and backbone provider over which
copyrighted materials are transferred are liable, since "they were helping
users transfer files between each other". Clearly, there is a major
distinction between something like the Internet or Jabber that have many
totally legitimate uses, but unfortunately may be put to nefarious
purposes; and something like Napster where it is at least a challenge to
convincingly argue that it has viable, legal applications.
Legalities are really not an issue for Jabber file transfer.
Moving transfers out of band is fine, however, it would be highly
advantageous for whatever band you move them into to fully adopt JID
routing rules. This is the trouble with using PASS - you are still on your
own to configure it around firewalls and such. The idea I'm pushing is that
we are setting up Jabber servers so that they can straddle firewalls; it
should not be necessary for clients to figure this out too in order to
transfer larger amounts of data. I should be able to tell PASS a *JID* that
I want to communicate with, and *PASS* should do all the remaining work,
negotiating with other PASS components if necessary, and return back to me
an IP and port to which to connect.
The most important argument I can propose is that we are not solving new
problems. We are sitting on top of 30 years of research and trial and error
in network architecture, and we are really doing the exact same things,
just on a higher level. These problems we are talking about, have all been
solved before.
When you send a packet to some IP address, it is not up to your client
machine to figure out which routers it needs to hop along the way. You just
send it into the cloud, and the network does the rest.
That's what I want - for any sized payload.
-Mike
|---------+---------------------------->
| | "Richard Dobson" |
| | <richard at dobson-i|
| | .net> |
| | Sent by: |
| | jdev-admin at jabber|
| | .org |
| | |
| | |
| | 06/06/2002 07:10 |
| | AM |
| | Please respond to|
| | jdev |
| | |
|---------+---------------------------->
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| |
| To: <jdev at jabber.org> |
| cc: |
| Subject: Re: [JDEV] File transfers |
| |
| |
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
Small level of abuse ????
The problems I outlines are not small they are very significant, there may
be better ways to get copyrighted files but it does not stop people using
jabber for that purpose now does it, and any copyrighted files that get
transfered via the jabber server open the operators of that server to
serious legal problems because they helped transfer the actual file between
the two users, remember napster got shut down because they were helping
users transfer files between each other, they werent even transfering the
files in-band via the napster servers, which jabber already supports
opening
it to possible legal problems already, but transfering files via the
servers
just takes it up to a whole new level.
Also transfering large files whether they are split up or not is just not
feasable at all because of the major jump in bandwidth use for the server
operators.
Also there is nothing stopping someone from pushing a file on someone
wether
they wanted it or not, the only way files should be sent is that the sender
sends a request to the receiver and then the receiver downloads the file
from the sender (HTTP or otherwise), not the sender pushing the file to the
receiver.
Also if the whole reason for this is because of wanting to get around a
firewall then you need to do it in the correct manor, using something like
PASS, so if a server provider is prepared to allow the transfering of files
this way they just setup a PASS server, you cant just force it on server
providers like this, that would end up making lots of the free servers
either shut down or start charging for using it. Bandwidth is not free.
Richard
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Beetz" <andy.beetz at clearswift.com>
To: <jdev at jabber.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 10:03 AM
Subject: RE: [JDEV] File transfers
> I can see a small level of abuse perhaps, but there are better ways to
> distribute/get hold of copyrighted files (kazaa to name but one). The
fact
> that the communications are 1 to 1 would not make the sharing of files on
a
> massive scale feasible. I can only speak for myself obviously, but I've
only
> ever used file transfer in msn messenger for small files. If I wanted to
> download say a movie, I would use something designed for that purpose,
even
> if it was from someone I knew I would find a way around not using an IM
app.
>
> I know in band data transfers present a problem, but I think splitting
the
> data would make it more server friendly. Plus the clients can still send
and
> receive messages etc in between parts (given higher priority). Firewalls
> present a major problem, but if you can get a connection to the server,
then
> the problem dissipates.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Dobson [mailto:richard at dobson-i.net]
> Sent: 06 June 2002 09:35
> To: jdev at jabber.org
> Subject: Re: [JDEV] File transfers
>
>
> I think that allowing file transfers of very small files in-band would be
> cool, but anything over 10k or so should be sent out of band by some
other
> means, allowing it in band at all is also a big problem because of the
> massive potential for abuse, in ways like DOS attacks against individual
> clients and the server itself, excessive use of expensive bandwidth, also
> creates copyright issues if people transfer copyrighted files via the
server
> because it then brings the server providors into the line of fire because
> they facilitated the transfer, etc etc.
>
> Because of all of these problems I dont think its a good idea to transfer
> files in-band at all.
>
> Just my 2p
> Richard
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Andy Beetz" <andy.beetz at clearswift.com>
> To: <jdev at jabber.org>
> Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 6:58 AM
> Subject: RE: [JDEV] File transfers
>
>
> > What about the nntp idea for very large posts? Where the file is split
> into
> > several parts, each part being only small in size could be transmitted
> > in-band just one at a time. As long as they carry header information
> > the client at the other end should be able to decode and re-assemble.
> > It
> should
> > be possible to request parts if they're missing.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Michael F Lin [mailto:MFLIN at us.ibm.com]
> > Sent: 05 June 2002 19:23
> > To: jdev at jabber.org
> > Subject: Re: [JDEV] File transfers
> >
> >
> >
> > When we generalize the Jabber network to thousands of servers, it
> > becomes something of a nightmare to transport stuff out of band. This
> > is of course why HTTP is not too good for this purpose - too many
> > people are behind firewalls. Any direct client-to-client connection
> > with whatever protocol will of course have the same problem. Relying
> > on e-mail routing is one option, but how do you negotiate what address
> > to send an e-mail to? How do you receive it? What if you need a file
> > but don't have access to your e-mail?
> >
> > There are any number of solutions you can set up with WebDAV and so
> > forth, but what we would really, really like - particularly when it
> > comes to
> Jabber
> > as a transport for web services - is a way to transport large payloads
> > if not directly in-band, then in a band that fully adopts JID routing.
> Jeremie
> > has proposed PASS, which is a step forwards but not totally
> > satisfactory.
> >
> > The only "good solutions" I've been able to think of basically involve
> > running a Jabber server that knows how to route s2s on every client
> machine.
> > Which is, not coincidentally, something I'm working towards.
> >
> > -Mike
> >
> >
> >
> > |---------+---------------------------->
> > | | Mike Oliver |
> > | | <ollie at appsaspeer|
> > | | s.com> |
> > | | Sent by: |
> > | | jdev-admin at jabber|
> > | | .org |
> > | | |
> > | | |
> > | | 06/05/2002 12:21 |
> > | | PM |
> > | | Please respond to|
> > | | jdev |
> > | | |
> > |---------+---------------------------->
> >
> >
> >-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >----
> > ---------------------------------------------------|
> > |
> > |
> > | To: jdev at jabber.org
> > |
> > | cc:
> > |
> > | Subject: Re: [JDEV] File transfers
> > |
> > |
> > |
> > |
> > |
> >
> >
> >-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >----
> > ---------------------------------------------------|
> >
> >
> >
> > Why have just one protocol?
> >
> > SMTP does pretty well at file transfers that are asynch. The Jabber
> > protocol can include a header for the attachments and the user at the
> other
> >
> > end can decide if they want to download the file. The a request can
> > then
> be
> > sent to the originating peer and an SMTP transfer begun and the remote
> > client can notify the user when the transaction is complete by asking
> where
> >
> > to put the file. There are SMTP libraries in almost every language
> > you
> can
> >
> > name, so this doesn't appear to be a big problem.
> >
> > FTP is another and offers the ability to transfer files without the
> > base64 encoding.
> >
> > Ollie
> >
> > At 11:45 AM 6/5/2002 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> > >In-band transport of large payloads is something we and others have
> > >been looking at pretty intensely. Obviously it would be a nice thing
> > >to have, but it is also very, very difficult to do properly. If you
> > >just stick base64 in an X element, you have huge problems because if
> > >that takes 10 minutes to transmit, you can't send anything else for
> > >those 10 minutes.
> > You
> > >could chunk them, but that hardly makes things simpler for the client
> > >software. This also makes it massively more difficult to distinguish
> > >legitimate traffic from a denial of service attack. Furthermore, it
> > >means the server has to do a whole lot more XML processing (which may
> > >already be a bottleneck), because all XML content has to be at least
> > >checked for well-formedness. To speak nothing of the bandwidth
> > >implications.
> > >
> > >Ultimately, I don't believe there is a satisfactory way to transport
> > >large payloads in-band while keeping things simple for the client.
> > >The solution to this problem will involve a more complex system on
> > >the client endpoints
> > >- though not necessarily in typical client software.
> > >
> > >-Mike
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >|---------+---------------------------->
> > >| | Andy Beetz |
> > >| | <andy.beetz at clear|
> > >| | swift.com> |
> > >| | Sent by: |
> > >| | jdev-admin at jabber|
> > >| | .org |
> > >| | |
> > >| | |
> > >| | 06/05/2002 10:29 |
> > >| | AM |
> > >| | Please respond to|
> > >| | jdev |
> > >| | |
> > >|---------+---------------------------->
> > >
> > > >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----
> --
> > --------------------------------------------------|
> >
> > > |
> > > |
> > > | To: "'jdev at jabber.org'"
> > > <jdev at jabber.org>
> > > |
> > > | cc:
> > > |
> > > | Subject: [JDEV] File
> > > transfers
> > > |
> > > |
> > > |
> > > |
> > > |
> > >
> > > >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----
> --
> > --------------------------------------------------|
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >I've set up jabberd and got a couple of clients connecting to it
> > >(winjab). I tried a file transfer which worked no problem. What I saw
> > >looking at the Winjab source is that the receiver downloads the file
> > >from the sender on it's own socket based connection.
> > >
> > >I'm just thinking that there should be a better way to do this and
> > >inside the message. I'm not saying my idea is the best or anything,
> > >but I do
> > think
> > >that it would present the client authors with less headaches. Anyway,
> > >my idea is that a message element can have a child, let's say
> > >attachment or even an x, which will contain the contents of the file.
> > >XML can handle
> > this
> > >if the file is base64 encoded, as it ends up as plain text.
> > >
> > >Just some thoughts
> > >Andy Beetz
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----
> --
> > -----------------------------------
> >
> > >
> > >Clearswift monitors, controls and protects all its messaging traffic
> > >in compliance with its corporate email policy using Clearswift
> > >products. Find out more about Clearswift, its solutions and services
> > >at www.clearswift.com.
> > >
> >
>
****************************************************************************
> > *******
> >
> > >
> > >This communication is confidential and may contain privileged
> > >information intended solely for the named addressee(s). It may not be
> > >used or disclosed except for the purpose for which it has been sent.
> > >If you are not the intended recipient, you must not copy, distribute
> > >or take any action in reliance on it. Unless expressly stated,
> > >opinions in this message are those of the individual sender and not
> > >of Clearswift. If you have received this communication in error,
> > >please notify Clearswift by emailing support at clearswift.com quoting
> > >the sender and delete the message and any attached documents.
> > >Clearswift accepts no liability or responsibility for any onward
> > >transmission or use of emails and attachments having left the
> > >Clearswift domain.
> > >
> > >This footnote confirms that this email message has been swept by
> > >MIMEsweeper for Content Security threats, including computer viruses.
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >jdev mailing list
> > >jdev at jabber.org
> > >http://mailman.jabber.org/listinfo/jdev
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >jdev mailing list
> > >jdev at jabber.org
> > >http://mailman.jabber.org/listinfo/jdev
> >
> > Michael Oliver
> > Chief Technology Officer
> > AppsAsPeers.com
> > 7391 S. Bullrider Ave.
> > Tucson, AZ 85747
> > 520.574.1150
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > jdev mailing list
> > jdev at jabber.org
> > http://mailman.jabber.org/listinfo/jdev
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > jdev mailing list
> > jdev at jabber.org
> > http://mailman.jabber.org/listinfo/jdev
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----
> -------------------------------------
> > Clearswift monitors, controls and protects all its messaging traffic
> > in compliance with its corporate email policy using Clearswift
> > products. Find out more about Clearswift, its solutions and services
> > at www.clearswift.com.
> >
>
****************************************************************************
> *******
> > This communication is confidential and may contain privileged
> > information intended solely for the named addressee(s). It may not be
> > used or disclosed except for the purpose for which it has been sent.
> > If you are not the intended recipient, you must not copy, distribute
> > or take any action in reliance on it. Unless expressly stated,
> > opinions in this message are those of the individual sender and not of
> > Clearswift. If you have received this communication in error, please
> > notify Clearswift by emailing support at clearswift.com quoting the
> > sender and delete the message and any attached documents. Clearswift
> > accepts no liability or responsibility for any onward transmission or
> > use
> of
> > emails and attachments having left the Clearswift domain.
> >
> > This footnote confirms that this email message has been swept by
> > MIMEsweeper for Content Security threats, including computer viruses.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > jdev mailing list
> > jdev at jabber.org
> > http://mailman.jabber.org/listinfo/jdev
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> jdev mailing list
> jdev at jabber.org
> http://mailman.jabber.org/listinfo/jdev
> _______________________________________________
> jdev mailing list
> jdev at jabber.org
> http://mailman.jabber.org/listinfo/jdev
>
_______________________________________________
jdev mailing list
jdev at jabber.org
http://mailman.jabber.org/listinfo/jdev
More information about the JDev
mailing list